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Spike has quickly become one of my favorite characters in the Buffyverse. Spike seems to straddle the line between good and evil. If he were a D&D character, he would be Pure Chaotic (or Chaotic Neutral if you use the old nomenclature). And if what I read about seasons 4 and 5 is correct, I'm definitely interested in seeing how the Spike character evolves, as chaotic characters always have interesting motivations behind their actions. Spike seems to flip flop between good and evil. On the one hand, he views humans purely as food. On the other hand, he also has the unique ability among vampires to sympathize with their very human situations. As a failed poet, Spike understands how peer pressure and the will to succeed can affect a person's life. Spike puts a lot of stock into what people percieve of him and really just wants to be noticed and loved by somebody - anybody. As a vamp without a soul, this makes him unique as well. You can't very well be soulless and truly love someone. However, a blind infatuation is not out of the question, especially when the basic need for recognition has been ignored. When Dru left the Spike, she deprived him of this recognition and support and basically starved the character.

Just wait till you watch the episodes from season 4 & 5. (For all I badmouth season 4, bad Buffy is still better than 90% of the other crap on the telly.) You can read about it on the internet, but until the writing, music, FX, and (most importantly) the acting come together, it doesn't hit you how good (or bad) something is. You have awesome dialogue, but a bad actor will mangle it. On the other hand, even when a scene is crap, good actors can raise it up. I think James Marsters is the best actor on either show, hands down. Spike goes through many changes and James is always able to make him fun and interesting. I think a lot of what shapes Spike (even moreso than being a poet) is that he was brought across as Dru's pet/mate/plaything/lover/etc. This makes him unique among the vampires (remember the Judge in season 2 said that Spike and Dru "reek of humanity"). It also leads to some fairly surprising developments later on in the series (I do think that you'll get more out of it if you don't read about seasons 6 & 7. That way it hits you new as the writers wanted it to, not from some cold computer screen.)

Being so passionate also keeps Spike from being a truly great bad guy (in the traditional sense, as I think he was one of if not the most excellent villain the show has). When it comes to being a bad-ass vampire, he's always playing second fiddle to Angelus, and I think it comes from motivation. Spike does what he wants, good or evil, because he wants to. It's all about the feeling he's experiencing. Angelus, on the other hand, is almost coldly logical. Some of his atrocities involve passion (killing Jenny Calendar and leaving her for Giles to find), but the way he goes about it is not sloppy at all. He plays other people's emotions against them. He is evil just for evil's sake, and that's worse than just doing crimes of passion. We can identify with Spike even when he's evil, because we've all felt that way. He just takes it to extremes. Being evil, not because you are mad or jealous, but just because you truly want to hurt someone? Very few people on this planet can identify with that, and most have been either locked up or executed.

From what I've read, the transition seems to be more gradual than you suggest if you take the hints. However, I agree with you overall without seeing the eps. This seems like a lame excuse to pidgeonhole a good character that no longer has any practical development to do other than gain attention.

It is more gradual than I suggested. Still, it's damn fast. Roughly 5 weeks to go from (semi-) nerd to lesbian. It's just that I already knew that it happened, and it just seemed like a rating stunt (the perils of reading ahead on the internet). I mean, her relationship with Oz
wasn't even that cold. It seemed forced. Which is a shame, because the relationship between Willow and Tara is decent, and it has ramifications later on (obviously). If I watch it again, it might seem better, it's just the first time it seemed kind of wrong somehow, and I think it's because it happens too fast. You don't get over a serious relationship that fast, and you especially don't make a change that big that fast.

Spoilers, AHOY! I already knew about the chip. It basically forces him into chaotic neutral land as mentioned earlier. In fact, even before the chip, Spike was the only purely chaotic character on the show except for Anya (who starts pure chaos and is turned into true neutral). In fact, depending on her future behavior, she might even be classified as Lawful Evil, the closest evil alignment to good. That's an extreme interpretation of the character, however. As a sidebar, I think it's interesting that all the characters in the Buffyverse fall neatly into one of these alignments. Think Joss plays D&D? As for this Riley character, he seems to become a regular guy on the show. And besides, maybe Buffy isn't truly attracted to your run of the mill guys. Either that or she's attracted to him because he reminds her of Angel. Unless you're about to tell me he's Angel's single-season-stunt-double.

Nah, Anya winds up just being a good guy. Her development is interesting, even though where she winds up isn't. However, it's all about the journey, not the destination. The character of Riley just got stale really fast. He's so similar to Angel that he never seemed that fresh to begin with. Add in the Willow thing, and what I think is the show's worst big bad (especially for following up the Mayor, who I think was another one of the show's best big bads) and you'll see why I just don't like season 4. But like I said earlier, bad Buffy is still good.

As for the D&D, wait until you get to the final episode. There’s one scene that’s such a nerdwank. It contains about 3 references that only geeks, nerds, and internet folk would get.

Gee, WB. Way to mess with the formula. I find it funny that shows get cancelled more frequently after a network tinkers with it. Let the fucking artists do their goddamn art and leave the business side to the suits for christ's sake. Sheesh.

Yeah, but unfortunately, these shows take money that artists don't have. The suits provide the money, and as such they want to "ensure" that they'll get their money back. Usually it's a mess. This time it worked out though, as Angel season 5 is excellent. On a side note, you can definitely tell where the Angel writers found out they were being cancelled, as the continuity factor ramps up big time. The only downside is that some of the story threads are wrapped up quickly, and some of the less important ones are dropped entirely. I don't think the show suffers from it, however. Some of my favorite moments are from season 5.

I remember the first time I saw Lorne, he was standing inside Wolfram & Hart somewhere in season 5. People were walking around, minding their own buisness. Nevermind the green guy. He's a cast member. WTF! No noticices the GREEN FUCKING DEMON walking around in your goddamn lobby? Jesus, was I wrong.

I just think it's funny that he went from one of my reasons for not watching the show to one of my favorite things about it. Lorne is one of the best characters on either Buffyverse show.

I haven't watched the show recently, but this doesn't surprise me.

I haven't watched it too much either. Maybe what I've seen recently is the exception, but from what I've heard on the internet, that's not the case.

Either you missed the subtext, or ignored it. Give the show a goddamn chance for christ's sake!

Oh, I missed that entirely. I'll have to borrow 24 and watch the first season (it might take a while, but I'm willing to watch it). I just wanted to vent about Firefly a bit, and that seemed like the best place to do it.

Nothing to comment on here, except continuity makes a damn good show with a solid fan following.

Forever Knight is actually pretty decent, and it lasted a good 3 seasons. I can let you borrow the first two if you want, but be warned, it is pretty cheesy. Most of the episodes I haven't watched in a while. There are no green karoke demons, but it's cheesier than Angel ever thought about being. It's not bad, it's just got a lower production value (which I think is excusable, as it came out before genre shows "broke into the big time" with Herc and Xena). I still like it (it's my third favorite show ever after Angel and Brisco County), but I watched it when it originally ran, so nostalgia might be coloring my opinion. Still, if you want to give it a try, let me know. If not, you won't hurt my feelings. I just think it's interesting to see how much Angel was "influenced" by this show.

When's my turn with it coming up? :P

As soon as certain members of our party get off the WOW long enough to watch it.